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Post by catinhat on Mar 12, 2012 13:24:19 GMT -5
I've been jabbering about rabbits all over the place, and thought it would be good if we could find this stuff later!
So...Kristi and M were both talking a bit about meat rabbits. What I've learned is that the two commercial breeds are Californian and White New Zealand. However, NZ comes in other colors to - red/brown and black. There are other breeds that I hear labeled as heritage meat breeds - so maybe a bit more all purpose? I hear that about Silver Fox.
I have a Californian doe and a NZ/mix buck, along with a 'black bunny' who might or might not be part NZ, and a little bunny whose mom looks like a Harlequin and daddy is a Holland Lop. Both mom and dad are big rabbits - I don't know if that's standard for them or not. They may be mutts for all I know, too.
My thinking is this. Rabbits are pretty inexpensive to raise - the feed isn't too expensive, and they don't eat a ton of it. But..if I raise rabbits that are also cute, as opposed to just cages and cages of white rabbits, I can probably sell enough as pets to pay for the feed, and suddenly, I'm getting groceries for the cost of my time and effort. If I find that a buck or doe just doesn't produce quick growers, we can always sell that buck or doe...or eat them.
I'll take photos of everyone, their cages, etc. today and post them soon, and y'all can help me figure out what I'm doing, lol. When I paid full price for the Californian, I did stipulate that I wanted to bring her back to breed. Then I can keep a buck and a doe from that litter, and breed the doe with my existing buck and the buck with any of the does, so that I have more genetics floating around while I'm figuring this all out. What it'll mean is that I could sell all the odd rabbits and raise purebred Cali's if I find that it works out best to do that. But in the past, keeping a single mutt doe meant I could sell enough pets to pay all my out of pocket.
Now, to get Hubby on board with eating rabbit.....
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Post by Cyngbaeld on Mar 12, 2012 14:01:11 GMT -5
I wish there were a domestic rabbit that tasted as good as the wild ones. You can't raise the wild ones since they are too skittish and you can't cross them.
I wouldn't worry too much about the genetics of the meat breeds. They are pretty homogenous. That is, all the bad recessives have been bred out. Just keep the strongest, faster growing ones for breeding stock and eat any that are weak or have any defects.
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Post by catinhat on Mar 12, 2012 14:03:30 GMT -5
That's what I'm thinking too, Kim. I just don't know about the ones we got that aren't meat breeds, and since I paid asking price for the Cali, I wanted to get some kind of bonus, lol. I am probably overthinking some things and not considering others enough, but like you said, just keep the best and eat the rest, and in the end we'll be fine.
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Post by eyeofthestorm on Mar 12, 2012 18:17:50 GMT -5
We are getting on the bandwagon, too. You all may (or may not) remember that a year ago we were going in this direction, and then I discovered that our local code had just been rewritten so we couldn't have them. We think we've found a way to have rabbits within the current wording - apparently, we may have pets, but not livestock. <eyeroll> I figure it's no one's business what happens to Thumper's litters. Cat, you really are quite the entrepreneur. I have already decided, no matter what, I will not sell rabbits. I just don't want to get involved in any way with the legal issues of selling rabbits (alive or processed). If someone really wants a pet, they can swap me something I want (say, a huge bag of the feed we're planning to use). Otherwise, bunnies who don't contribute will go to freezer camp. I will happily sell droppings (if I have any I'm willing to part with). I'd also like at some point to try fiber rabbits. I would like to find out if it's worth raising them for fiber and selling the fiber. But that's way down the road. Potentially. Now, against my preferred choice, our rabbit adventure will begin inside. Please don't tell me all the ways this is going to be a problem. Believe me, I've spent plenty of time trying to think ahead and head them off. But I've reconciled myself to learning on the fly. There are a couple advantages. We don't have a fence currently, so the hutch inside will keep nosy-parkers and stray dogs (big problem here) out of our beeswax. I won't have to worry about keeping the rabbit cool in the summer. And since she'll be housed in our school room, well, she's science too, I guess. DH built her a hutch above what will be storage. It's high enough that our neurotic dog (yes, we still have her, I'd rather not talk about it, but she is better) won't have a chance. Yes, I did say it was high. That's our youngest underneath. Yes, I know it's going to be a, erm, challenge to deal with the rabbit. DH did not ask me. He just did it. I'll work it out. Worst case scenario, it will really motivate me to find the money for fencing materials. No bunny yet, though. We're expecting to get a doe from friends - they have two litters -- we are hoping there's a doe in there for us that will be here in the next couple weeks. The litters are from a Flemish giant mama and a satin mama. The sire (is that right?) was the same for both litters -- I don't know what he is. I've seen him, but didn't pay attention at the time. I know there's a big difference between a Flemish Giant and a satin, but the issue here is that we trust the lady we're getting them from. That's big for me since we're just starting. We expect the doe to be about 8 weeks when we get her; I figure it will be a minimum 3-4 months before we breed her. That gives me time to work out the issue of where the other rabbits will live between leaving mama and going to freezer camp. Actually, I have that worked out...just have to break to DH. Kind of like he presented the 4' tall shelf for the hutch You know, after it's a done deal. Last thing I'll say for now - I read Storey's guide to raising rabbits. For the most part, I felt it was a valuable read. But a few things concerned me, and talking to people here who have raised rabbits for years, they disagree with fundamental issues the author raises. Since I'm a big read-er, if anyone has any really good books, I'd appreciate hearing about them. In the meantime, I'm going to keep reading here.
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Post by ~CalicoPrairie~ on Mar 12, 2012 18:39:24 GMT -5
You know what, Sandra? There's nothing wrong with having your bun indoors. They say (whoever 'they' are), that bunnies that live indoors tend to live about 3x as long. Not sure why that is---my assumption is that they get more attention, their homes are cleaned more regularly (maybe), and they are not exposed to any freeloaders that might want to make them a host for their new colony of whatever.
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Post by Cyngbaeld on Mar 12, 2012 19:50:10 GMT -5
Sandra, aren't you just a little north of me? If so, inside is the only way you are going to do well with rabbits. Our climate is just too hot for them.
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Post by eyeofthestorm on Mar 12, 2012 20:06:09 GMT -5
Yes..I do expect that the hutch/area around it will get cleaned more often than if it were outside...especially since it's in the room where we spend most of our day.
Kim, you (I) would think so, and I have met people locally who air condition their rabbitries. But, the lady we're getting ours from does not, her hutches are outdoors and she's been raising rabbits for over 20 years. And 5 mi east, there is a family that raises rabbits on a large scale and sells to restaurants. I haven't visited there, but folks at church know them and there's no mention of any special accommodations. Regardless, it's not something I need to concern myself with for a while.
Also, FWIW, we're @ 3 hrs north of Austin. A little better than you as far as heat goes, but not too much. Last summer I got heat stroke in July, and I thought I'd go stir crazy before Oct got here. Anyway, IDK how any rabbits survive summer here, except the wild ones who burrow.
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Post by ~CalicoPrairie~ on Mar 12, 2012 20:25:13 GMT -5
Where we are, Sandra, it can get up to 110, but generally speaking our hottest days are 105-107, with July and August being at least 100 on a daily basis. For our buns, we'll be putting clip on fans on each of the doors of their hutches, and use frozen water bottles for them to lay on and keep cool during the summer. I'm hoping that, besides keeping their hutch under an awning so no sun shines on it, will be enough.
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Post by catinhat on Mar 12, 2012 21:41:59 GMT -5
I don't know why indoor rabbits would be bad, actually. I had Shadow inside because I didn't have outdoor space ready, plus she had been an indoor pet, and I didn't want to put her out in the barn all alone. Now she has company out there and seems quite happy. I think the more even temperature, and less likelihood of being spooked would be good for a rabbit. Is the bottom of that cage wire, Sandra? Will there be a tray underneath to catch the droppings? Shadow is litter trained, and goes in a box - mostly - but we were still picking up a few stray beans that would fall out of the cage. Other than that, rabbits are not especially stinky or anything. Honestly, I worked at a preschool that had a cage of mice and they smelled a lot worse than any of the indoor bunny cages I've been around. The shed my buns are in is a 3 sided shed with the open side facing east. I have a gate/fence across that open side, and windows on the opposite wall, but they get good air circulation in there. I never though about a fan, but I have used the frozen water bottles and they work really well here. I've always heard that the concern is to keep rabbits from getting too hot, but cold doesn't bother them much, so I'm glad this shed faces east. Our morning sun, even in summer, is pleasant. I also put a piece of plywood along the most eastern cage, so everyone has a shady patch (and some sun) in the morning, but no one is forced to be in the sun. The one thing I would say is that chicken wire barely slows down a dog, so if anyone has rabbits outside, I think it's better to use rabbit cage wire or hardware cloth for the hutches. I have had dogs go through chicken wire and kill my chickens, so we have our outdoor runs and/or gates reinforced with cattle panels. The rabbit cages I have are rabbit wire, with hardware cloth for the floors, except one is on a solid floor. I'm probably going to have to convert that cage, because it's Shadow, and even though she's litter trained, today she was 'marking' with pee in all the corners. For all we know, this is her first time around other rabbits. My understanding is that if they get pee in the thick paw fur it can cause some sort of lesions and infection. I didn't get photos taken today, but it's for the best. DD was playing with bunnies one at a time in the bunny corral, and since there is no grass yet, the Cali and the little grey/white both looked brown Perhaps tomorrow. A question - what sorts of fresh fruits and vegetables do you feed for treats or supplement? Is there anything you don't feed them, because it's dangerous? So far we've just given scraps of carrot, broccoli stem and celery, because I'm still learning what they can have, but I do like the idea of supplementing a little from the garden. I have heard they can't have lettuce...or that they can't have too much, depending on where you read.
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Post by eyeofthestorm on Mar 13, 2012 5:50:55 GMT -5
Laura, the hutch will have a tray. DH found that he could order one online that was less (inc shipping) than buying the materials to make one (it's metal, fwiw).
edited to add: I forgot - there is a sort of heavy screen on the bottom (above where the tray will go). The sides are double layers of chicken wire. I'm not sure it would be sufficient for outside, where they would be predators, but I believe it will be enough for inside. The chicken wire layers are sort of crossed on each other, so that the openings are 1/4 of the size of one layer. This is mainly to prevent adventurous/stray kits from taking a tumble.
I, too, am curious to hear @ feed other than rabbit feed. The lady we're getting ours from showed me various grasses in our yard that she supplements with -c rye, shepherd's purse, these litle ferns we have, and a couple others I don't recall. She also confirmed: no lettuce. And iirc, she gives her rabbits a bit of dry something each day -- not alfalfa, something else. I'm sure I'll remember the same after I post.
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Post by ~CalicoPrairie~ on Mar 13, 2012 8:44:07 GMT -5
About feed---from what I understand, rabbits can eat many many fruits and veggies----if they will. They also need some hay (not so much alfalfa, but there are a few others they can have, including timothy). One thing I don't understand so much is how rabbits get their high protein in the wild, because most on the internet will say that they NEED rabbit pellets. Being an 'old school' type of thinker, it doesn't make sense that they can't get it anywhere else (in nature, I mean), but I haven't really looked into it or cared so much because pellets are cheap, easy and Alice is partial to them. Alice won't eat fruits and veggies, she's strictly a pellet/timothy hay/water girl---on and don't forget the steady diet of cecotrope, lol. However, the more I put her in the garden, the more she is warming up to doing a little tasting.
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Post by Cyngbaeld on Mar 13, 2012 9:26:43 GMT -5
They can have wild, or prickly lettuce. The wild rabbits eat it. My goats absolutely adore it and right now are eating bushels of it. I let them pick their own.
Some grass is extremely high protein, like the native crabgrass here. When I had buns, they got a lot of the fresh grass.
I used frozen water bottles, but the buns wouldn't get next to them until they were thawed and warmed. Laying there panting, but wouldn't get close to the frozen bottles. Don't know why. I had trouble breeding them because the bucks go sterile in the heat and take a month or two to recover when it cools down and I was doing good to get two litters a yr per doe. The second litter was real iffy because by then it was hot again. I had Californians from a local breeder.
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Post by catinhat on Mar 13, 2012 9:58:58 GMT -5
Sandra, one thing you may want to add to your cage is a little guard around the bottom edges. I have one cage with it - I'll take a pic - and it cuts down a lot of the rabbit poops that escape the cage. I put some carrot, celery and broccoli stem into all the cages yesterday afternoon. It disappeared from 2 cages immediately, a third cage by early evening - the Cali still hadn't touched her fresh stuff at 8pm. So she's probably never been offered, and we'll just keep trying. We get timothy hay from the feed store for free. It's floor sweepings, but I took a big Goodwill bag and the boy there let me fill it - he even helped me (he lives across the road from me and he's a talker - going to the feed store always takes about 45 min. ) We took cookies to 'barter' for the hay. As for alfalfa hay, you can give it to pregnant/nursing does. I wouldn't be surprised if domesticated rabbits 'need' more protein and need the pellets because they have been bred to put on the weight faster (referring to the commercial breeds here), and if I were going full commercial and trying to make money, but I am more interested in learning what's possible. When I read old books, people fed their cows mangel beets and turnips in winter - you sure don't hear that anymore - and I want to figure out what I can harvest here (as far as growing greens and hay) and grow here in my garden for them...not as much to save money (because pellets are not very costly), but to be more self-reliant.
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Post by Cyngbaeld on Mar 13, 2012 10:43:33 GMT -5
Young tumbleweed is good. Actually, people have been known to eat the very young weeds in early spring. Make soup from them, it tastes like pea soup.
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Post by eyeofthestorm on Mar 13, 2012 11:14:10 GMT -5
Timothy - that's what she gives them, not alfalfa.
Laura, that's a great idea - the guard around the bottom.
In the Storey book, he makes a very compelling case about characteristics that have been bred out of rabbits - since they reproduce so quickly, thousands of rabbit generations can take place during one human generation. He says that he's seen domestic rabbits that don't even recognize predators. This might explain the need for additional protein. However, he uses this argument to explain why domestic rabbits need a constant source of antibiotics - not something I'll do, and my friend who's providing the doe says she never medicates an animal that isn't already sick. So, ymmv. Thank goodness.
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